Openhost and Worldwides

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      Openhost and Worldwides

      Hi, I've been playing MKW competitively since 2012, and I, like many other competitive players, enjoy WWing. There are clan wars/leagues, tournaments, the mogi lounge, etc., but even though we have access to those, sometimes you just want to WW, you know?

      I am aware that the VR search system is planned to undergo some tweaks, and that there's this flaw: if someone is searching and the room that fits the best for their VR is on the track selection screen, Wiimmfi will just immediately put them in another room. But overall, the general concept is that if someone wants to join a WW, they should join a room that is similar to their skill level. In an ideal world, it would be almost impossible for a 4K player to join a room with an average VR of 8K+. However, even after the aforementioned things are patched up and fixed, there's still an issue. A lot of high-VR players have openhost due to them hosting mogi/clan rooms often, or just friend rooms. So, a 4K player can easily join a room full of 9Ks by doing this.

      I want to make something very clear. I have several friends in the MKW community who are nowhere near competitive-level players. I would much rather hang out with good people who are terrible at MKW than toxic people who are amazing at MKW. And a lot of the people who have super low VR are good, smart people, but they just haven't been playing MKW that long which isn't their fault. Overall, like most people, a lot of people who have super low VR are pleasant and enjoyable to be around. If this post begins to elicit any negative emotions from you, or if you're tempted to write a response that contains the word "elitist", then please refer back to this paragraph.

      However, I think it would be better if low VR players were not able to join these rooms in this way. Here's what usually happens (I'm talking regular WWs, CTWWs are a bit different): somehow a good WW forms full of high VR players. It's a miracle and everyone is having lots of fun. Then, someone with super low VR joins (please remember the above paragraph!!!). The result is that it's always 100cc (I, like some others, think 100cc is fine every so often and good to have in small doses, but I and most other people also agree that if it's 100cc most of the time, it's much less enjoyable), they pick Luigi Circuit every single race, and they're half a lap behind in last spamming shocks every 40 seconds. Then, the high VR players begin to leave the WW due to this or even worse, target the sole low-VR player in an attempt to get them to leave the room. The situation I just described happens more often than you think and is far from ideal for all parties involved.

      I have no idea how many of these super low VR players are joining due to them joining via Openhost rather than them being randomly placed in the WW, but again, the whole point of the system is to make it so that players are placed in WWs with others around their skill level, and a 4K player should not be able to join a WW full of 9K players. Openhost, while an an amazing feature that has benefitted us greatly and that we are all very appreciative for, has the side-effect of preventing this from happening. And again, the solution is not to tell everyone to turn off Openhost because most of the time there are people in the WW who I don't know and thus can't contact. Therefore, here is what I am proposing:

      I think it would be beneficial to implement a mechanism such that if a player tries to join a WW via Openhost, they are denied from joining the WW if their VR is lower than the lowest-VR player in the room.

      First off, I did talk to Leseratte and he said it would, in theory, be possible to implement such a feature as the server knows the VR of every player. I asked him if it would be possible if a message could pop up saying "Your VR is too low to join this Worldwide room. Please try searching for a Worldwide using the regular Worldwide feature", and he said that would be more difficult, though that's not necessarily a mandatory feature. This mechanism would not prevent any player from searching for a WW like you normally would. It would only prevent someone from joining a WW via Openhost if their VR is lower than everyone else's in the room.

      If you talk to any competitive player who's been around for a while, they'd most likely say that they miss the days when there used to be amazingly high-level WWs all the time, but they are sad that those just don't exist anymore. Earlier today, a bunch of us in the lounge organized a WW and it was a lot of fun. Although, there was a guy with 5100 VR and his guest who were miles behind spamming shocks, and before you say it, that is NOT the motivation for me writing this post. I had most of this post written out BEFORE the WW earlier today. Anyway, here are some screenshots just to show that there's good agreement to what I've said in this post (I can dig up more but you get the idea):



      I understand that this should not be a high-priority project. I know it's not the most common thing in the world; however, more people know about joining WWs via Openhost than you think, even casual players. Ultimately, like I said before, what usually happens is that when a super-low VR player joins a really good WW, either people start to leave or the super low VR player gets targetted to try to get them to leave the room. Both of these scenarios are not good for anyone. Thank you for your time.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by MattL ().

      Zachruff wrote:

      I agree with this but honestly, how often is a 4k player purposely joining a 9k WW via openhost unless troy is in the room or something? I think its just that the WW search function isnt strict enough with who it places where, resulting in low vr players being randomly placed in high vr rooms and vice versa.
      I agree with you that more often it's due to the WW search, hence the first sentence of the final paragraph: "I understand that this should not be a high-priority project. I know it's not the most common thing in the world; however, more people know about joining WWs via Openhost than you think, even casual players."

      The knowledge spreads by word of mouth. It's a pretty natural thing to want to tell your friends. Hey, there's this trick you can use to join good WWs! Also for example, Troy has mentioned it on his stream (I'm not faulting Troy or anything, I've talked about it too and I'm talking about it right now), but that's why I say that more people know about it than you probably think. You're most likely correct that most of the time this happens when a big streamer is playing, but it's not a very large leap for someone to think, "I was able to join Troy/other person using this openhost thing, why don't I try using that for other people?" This is just the final piece of the puzzle in making it so people join the appropriate room for them.

      MattL wrote:

      Zachruff wrote:

      I agree with this but honestly, how often is a 4k player purposely joining a 9k WW via openhost unless troy is in the room or something? I think its just that the WW search function isnt strict enough with who it places where, resulting in low vr players being randomly placed in high vr rooms and vice versa.
      I agree with you that more often it's due to the WW search, hence the first sentence of the final paragraph: "I understand that this should not be a high-priority project. I know it's not the most common thing in the world; however, more people know about joining WWs via Openhost than you think, even casual players."
      The knowledge spreads by word of mouth. It's a pretty natural thing to want to tell your friends. Hey, there's this trick you can use to join good WWs! Also for example, Troy has mentioned it on his stream (I'm not faulting Troy or anything, I've talked about it too and I'm talking about it right now), but that's why I say that more people know about it than you probably think. You're most likely correct that most of the time this happens when a big streamer is playing, but it's not a very large leap for someone to think, "I was able to join Troy/other person using this openhost thing, why don't I try using that for other people?" This is just the final piece of the puzzle in making it so people join the appropriate room for them.
      I guess but like, are casuals really going to wiimmfi.de/mkw to stalk for good rooms to "invade"? I just cant really see little timmy with his wii wheel doing that. Obviously some people around like the 7k range might, but honestly if you dont want people joining your rooms VIA openhost you can just blacklist them, raptor does this for example and blocks any casual who uses openhost to join his WWs, so they cant again in the future. Or when you go into a WW you can just disable openhost all together if you really want.

      Zachruff wrote:

      I guess but like, are casuals really going to wiimmfi.de/mkw to stalk for good rooms to "invade"? I just cant really see little timmy with his wii wheel doing that. Obviously some people around like the 7k range might, but honestly if you dont want people joining your rooms VIA openhost you can just blacklist them, raptor does this for example and blocks any casual who uses openhost to join his WWs, so they cant again in the future. Or when you go into a WW you can just disable openhost all together if you really want.
      I could block everyone who joins or turn off openhost myself, but the problem is that so many people have openhost, they can just join through someone else. And I don't have contact with everyone - it's not like I can message everyone and tell them to turn off openhost.
      And always the same discussion with wrong assumptions and wrong statements.
      In short notes:
      * VR is relevant at Wiimmfi, as long enough open rooms are available.
      * Only the host VR is relevant.
      * VR is not a good rating for the strength of a player.
      * Guests are outside of VR rating system.
      * meet-friend and cheated VR contraries VR weighted matchmaking.
      * I don't want exclude players from playing because others don't like them (their VR).

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      Wiimm wrote:

      And always the same discussion with wrong assumptions and wrong statements.
      In short notes:
      * VR is relevant at Wiimmfi, as long enough open rooms are available.
      * Only the host VR is relevant.
      * VR is not a good rating for the strength of a player.
      * Guests are outside of VR rating system.
      * meet-friend and cheated VR contraries VR weighted matchmaking.
      * I don't want exclude players from playing because others don't like them (their VR).

      Would it be possible to make matchmaking based on the Average VR of players in a room, rather than just the host? This might help matchmaking improve.

      And honestly, there aren't many people who cheat VR these days from what I can tell, or nowhere near enough to "invalidate" vr matchmaking

      Wiimm wrote:

      And always the same discussion with wrong assumptions and wrong statements.
      In short notes:
      * VR is relevant at Wiimmfi, as long enough open rooms are available.
      * Only the host VR is relevant.
      * VR is not a good rating for the strength of a player.
      * Guests are outside of VR rating system.
      * meet-friend and cheated VR contraries VR weighted matchmaking.
      * I don't want exclude players from playing because others don't like them (their VR).
      None of these points relate to what was said in the first post though. The problem is not random 4k-players joining a 9k WW using a global search. The problem also isn't the like 1% of guests. The problem is many popular people with high VR use OPENHOST (either with a blacklist or a ridiculously large white list) and that 4k-VR players watch their videos / streams, add them to their friend list, and join a high-VR race.

      No need to exclude them from matchmaking, the idea of MattL was to just deny them joining a WW using OPENHOST / the friend list, if their VR is too much outside of the room range.

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      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 0 mal editiert, zuletzt von Leseratte ()

      Zachruff wrote:

      Wiimm wrote:

      And always the same discussion with wrong assumptions and wrong statements.
      In short notes:
      * VR is relevant at Wiimmfi, as long enough open rooms are available.
      * Only the host VR is relevant.
      * VR is not a good rating for the strength of a player.
      * Guests are outside of VR rating system.
      * meet-friend and cheated VR contraries VR weighted matchmaking.
      * I don't want exclude players from playing because others don't like them (their VR).
      Would it be possible to make matchmaking based on the Average VR of players in a room, rather than just the host? This might help matchmaking improve.

      And honestly, there aren't many people who cheat VR these days from what I can tell, or nowhere near enough to "invalidate" vr matchmaking
      I don't think average is the answer. That relies on the room to have a lot of people. It would mess up smaller rooms very fast the moment just 1 too many out-of-range VR players join.

      The solution is doing whatever is needed to get these kinds of rooms to form more commonly:

      This is the ideal range for items to work as intended and VR loss for 6th to be minimal. The absolute perfect 12 player room has a 6th place VR loss/gain of 0 but that expectation is ludicrous.
      Whatever can make the kind of room I linked more common is all that needs to happen, whether that's 1500+/- host VR (I believe the current is 2000+/-) or something else.

      Matt's suggestion does help but it would be nice to have stats of just how many players joined via OPENHOST in the first place to assess if this is even a statistically significant issue.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Maidvelia ().

      I have conjunctivitis and have not read it correctly. Therefore, my answer does not fit the topic. Even now I still have problems to read long texts. But I think that it is reasonable and feasible to limit OPENHOST to private rooms.

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      Wiimm wrote:

      I have conjunctivitis and have not read it correctly. Therefore, my answer does not fit the topic. Even now I still have problems to read long texts. But I think that it is reasonable and feasible to limit OPENHOST to private rooms.
      Im sorry but this feels like a really bad idea, mostly due to the strict friend limit of 30 friends in mario kart wii, if you want to join a worldwide with your friends you cant unless they already have you added which is really not great. It also will ruin livestreamers who want people to join them in a worldwide, as now viewers cant easily play with them. A lot of people will get upset over this. I think that this is a really bad idea to remove it from worldwides, it will ruin worldwides for me and most other people just so a few people dont have to play with casuals. Please do NOT restrict OPENHOST to private rooms.
      Before you change anything, Could we wait until leseratte allows people to join WWs during the voting screen. This will allow wiimmfi's VR search to work a lot better, as right now it ignores rooms that are on suspend. I think that with better VR search we would not need to remove OPENHOST.

      Could we also get statistics on how people join rooms via friends/OPENHOST? I still do not think that lots of people with low vr are joining high vr rooms on purpose (with OPENHOST of someone in the room) but rather are randomly being placed in those rooms by wiimmfi.
      Or can we just wait until the suspended room is no longer suspended? Joining on the voting screen seems extra for a problem that can be fixed by just waiting a bit longer to get into the suspended room instead of the player getting put into a different room immediately that's out-of-range.

      And yes I am curious about OPENHOST statistics, but I'm still completely fine with it sticking to private rooms (or at the very least, WWs get White List only as they truly don't need anything else).

      Maidvelia wrote:

      Or can we just wait until the suspended room is no longer suspended? Joining on the voting screen seems extra for a problem that can be fixed by just waiting a bit longer to get into the suspended room instead of the player getting put into a different room immediately that's out-of-range.
      Sure, id be glad to have this, but I think Wiimm said no to extending the search time.

      Maidvelia wrote:

      The CTWW VR search is definitely NOT strong. There's still plenty of mixed rooms I see these days.

      If the 80 second timer wasn't there it would be strong.
      Highly disagree with this, Ive seen and played in a lot of high level ctwws.

      Also, if by your weird logic apparently casuals are smart enough to stalk the mkw status page to add people openhost fc's to get into good rooms, what stopping them from just hacking their VR to be high enough to join the room?
      Not sure what your definition of high level is. If my casual friends keep saying there aren't good rooms I'm inclined to believe them.

      That was Matt's assumption that they may stalk the page, it wasn't mine. VR hacks are even less common due to needing Riivolution or Gecko. If the player wants to stick to their current loader they won't use any.

      Anyway, you're bringing up pointless crap. I don't like OPENHOST in WWs because it underminded the whole concept of maintaining a friend roster. It's ultimately Wiimm's decision on if it is removed. I personally don't like OPENHOST in WWs but if the statistics prove it's not the issue, then leave it be. I think just keep White List and call it a day.

      Maidvelia wrote:

      Not sure what your definition of high level is. If my casual friends keep saying there aren't good rooms I'm inclined to believe them.

      That was Matt's assumption that they may stalk the page, it wasn't mine. VR hackers are even less common due to needing Riivolution or Gecko. If the player wants to stick to their current loader they won't use any.

      Anyway, you're bringing up pointless crap. I don't like OPENHOST in WWs because it underminded the whole concept of maintaining a friend roster. It's ultimately Wiimm's decision on if it is removed. I personally don't like OPENHOST but if the statistics prove it's not the issue, then leave it be. I think just keep White List and call it a day.

      We do need statistics before anything changes.

      And the whole reason OPENHOST exists is because mkw's friend roster is shit, so I really dont understand the "maintaining your roster" thing like what does that even mean

      Maidvelia wrote:



      Friend rosters used to be something we could be proud of, especially when 1 or more pages were entirely lit up with people in WWs.

      Im sorry but I still dont get why anyone should be proud of who they have on their roster. Like if you want to have cool people on your roster then go right ahead, but we shouldnt remove an actual useful feature to make people's time harder to join friends/streamers etc in worldwides.
      Because it allows them to easily get into good rooms if their roster is several pages active? That's how WFC maintained room quality, not just its VR search.

      Is it useful if it's interfering with matchmaking algorithms though? I don't think so.

      Again, if there's statistics to back it up as not being any significant obstacle, let it stay. I personally don't like it and would rather White List stays. A streamer can do all they need with White List between races. It isn't hard.